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Danai Giannoglou
Is the Artist-Curator an artist who takes on curatorial projects or a curator that draws from the artistic toolkit?

Isabelle Sully
‘For me, it is precisely about using artistic tools, techniques, and approaches through a curatorial lens. In the example of A Tale of A Tub, and as mentioned before, my artist-curator approach manifests in how site-specific or context-specific I wish to work. This doesn’t necessarily mean that everything will focus on the building or the architecture of the institution—which is, in itself, already so dominant—but I do want to create subtle contextual nods that keep us, as a team, aware of the responsibilities that come with working within the neighbourhood. Additionally, I aim to contribute to how we can think of the role of institutions within settings off the beaten track more broadly as a field. The current exhibition, The Lips of History, builds on research I conducted at the Houweling Telecommuseum in Rotterdam a couple of years ago. I wanted to look into telecommunications in order to think about the distribution of administrative language, and when I became the artistic director of A Tale of A Tub, I realized it was the moment to work with the museum in the way that I wanted. This is one example of how my artistic research will filter into the program of the institution.

Danai Giannoglou
In this sense, would you say that The Lips of History, which explores the latent stories, networks, and legacy of telecommunications, is an exhibition that introduces a new direction or sets the tone for your future program?

Isabelle Sully
‘I would say it sets the tone in the sense of marking a turn of voice, but not necessarily in terms of its subject. I actually don’t tend to make thematic exhibitions—I find them too often reductive and in the business of instrumentalising work for a curatorial aim—so it was a surprise for me that my first show was thematically focused [laughs]. For me, it is important to work with artists who are interested in making through formal experimentation, as I feel this is underrepresented in the Dutch scene given the dominance of research-based practices. I also want to work trans-historically and transgenerationally and platform a combination of new and pre-existing work. Marxist poet Keston Sutherland says that “being a Marxist poet is to honor the lives already given to work”. I always keep this in mind, this desire to give space to work that has already been made and not only focus on the production of new things. At the same time, not all spaces in the Netherlands can afford to commission new work, and doing this is also something I both feel responsible for (because we can occasionally) and find important, especially for younger artists. These are some little tendencies in terms of the future tone.’

Danai Giannoglou
How do you think these tendencies and your wish for site-specific inspiration relate to the institution’s building and location in the suburbs of Rotterdam?

Isabelle Sully
‘This is the 10th year of A Tale of a Tub. Sofie Post, the business director, and myself are the 3rd directorial team. When we started, I wanted to find a thread between the different periods and directorial directions. I felt it was important for consistency, and I didn’t want to be one of these directors who come in and forget all previous histories. What I felt was binding all these years together was an understanding of the institution essentially as a social body. This idea stemmed directly from the building’s function, currently as a residential complex and historically as a bathhouse and washhouse. This cue from the building has been informing and still informs all the programs in terms of how to be socially responsible. The fact that we see our neighbors every day forces us to think also what this space can be for the residents of the complex. With that in mind, we are working with some artists to set up a café at the front of the space so that it can be used by the residents in the way that they want. The desire for a horeca establishment has been expressed repeatedly, yet as the entire complex is a heritage-listed building, the space we are in is zoned to be devoted to culture only. So this primary function cannot change, but the question to be asked in the coming years is how an art institution can become even more of a social space without sacrificing the criticality of artists.’

Danai Giannoglou
Speaking about social space, I remember that in the statement issued when you took over the directorship, you characterized this particular time in the Netherlands as ‘a time when the social value of art is in question’.

Isabelle Sully
‘We have a new government that was elected in part due to its rejection of the arts and the defunding of the cultural sector, so this feels directly hostile towards what we are all doing as a field. Art’s contribution to society is being completely undermined and underestimated in this political climate.’

Danai Giannoglou
What is the place that language holds in your work, research and creation of social space?

Isabelle Sully
‘I have self-initiated two projects that have to do with language. Playbill, together with Martha Jager, which is a project focused on staging language and translation. Unbidden Tongues came about as an output for the research I was doing at the time.
Language is at the core of my interests, and I can’t help but also bring it to the program of A Tale of A Tub. However, I want to do it in different ways than how we’ve done it so far. I have always gravitated towards institutional critique, context-specific and conceptual practices. Of course, language, and administrative language in particular, is part of these movements, but it can also be a metaphor to talk about subjectivity and the ways it is limited within dominant structures, language being one of them.’

Danai Giannoglou
I guess the bulletin, this new strand of A Tale of A Tub, is part of your interest into language. What is the role of publishing for the institution?

Isabelle Sully
‘I think this relates to the artist-curator question. Publishing has always been a tool in my kit, to continue the metaphor. As has working with writing and writers, and closely with graphic designers too, like Maud Vervenne. The institution has already made a number of publications to accompany exhibitions, but I wanted it to be a more regular activity. We’ll be publishing four issues per year, each one accompanying one of the main projects. One part of the bulletin is that there will always be a text commissioned by a writer who will not be writing directly about the exhibitions but more alongside them. The first text was by Cait McKinney, an artist and theorist who has conducted research around different feminist and queer archives related to self-initiated communication networks. The second will be by a street doctor working in the south of Rotterdam. We hope that slowly the residents of the complex will also be able to contribute to it. For me, it would be great if in two years, instead of a four-page bulletin, it will be a ten-page bulletin that is used as a community noticeboard of sorts. It is really an experiment; we’ll see how it works. It was important for me to take some risks from an artistic perspective.’

Danai Giannoglou
You have mentioned risk-taking, connecting more with the immediate audience, and using artistic tools. Do you have any other goals regarding the future of the institution?

Isabelle Sully
‘On an artistic level, I would say that the goal is to keep taking risks, programming beyond the status quo, leaning into collaboration, exposing projects to things we cannot control, and learning from what happens. On an organizational level, the goal is to stay open [laughs]. I mean this both literally, as well as staying open to the input and ideas of others. It is important to me to help each other keep the doors open too, as I am sure this is a goal for everyone in the field right now. On this, I must say that I’ve been humbled by how collegial the Rotterdam scene feels from an institutional perspective. I also want to pay as many artists as possible, and properly. So, working with artists across all aspects of the institution, not just the program. Last but not least, being a first-time director, I want to listen to other directors and unlearn patriarchal management tendencies inherited over the years. It is hopeful that there are many female individuals in such positions, and I would love to create a network amongst us.’