Keren Cytter X Nora Schultz
Israeli artist Keren Cytter has initiated A.P.E in 2010 together with curators Maaike Gouwenberg and Kathy Noble. The aim of A.P.E (art projects era) is to develop projects that cannot be realized within traditional institutional formats or frameworks. Nora Schultz worked together with A.P.E for the release of an artist book called The Terminal. For Metropolis M they speak about their project, responding to a few questions send to them by the editors.
We met in Bern at the Summer Academy. I remember that we celebrated my birthday, and I made a big joint, and Nora liked Curb Your Enthusiasm and invited everyone to my place to watch it, and everyone fell asleep except for Nora who was laughing at the jokes.
True. Actually, I was thinking about Bern today, because I remember that in the middle of the street there was a house with columns and a roof. Every third column there was an ashtray, permanently installed within the middle of the city, and thats, kind of, weird. I remember we made jokes about that.
Yes, so thats what we remember, and it was a whole story with rebellion and stuff, but it was not related to us really, against the teachers and confidants. Yes, it was fine.
Yes, and we continued to be friends in Berlin for some years, and we always hung out together in Kerens apartment, and sometimes in mine. Yes, we shared a lot of…
Big moments. Memorable moments of embarrassment. So maybe thats why we are friends.
And thats what probably gets into the work too, its fun for us to work together sometimes.
Yes, but first, we knew each other. Then we knew each others work, and then, you know, weve known each other for years.
Still we dont know each other well enough yet.
Theres still a lot to discover. Yes.
Books
We made a book together because of A.P.E. I wanted to make an artist book, and all the time, for four years, we actually wanted to make an artist book together, and then Nora moved to New York, and she suddenly had a bit more free time. I did poetry books, and I had enough of them, so I was saying maybe we could make an artist book together. Nora was having exhibitions – we did it based on the exhibitions.
The book is about a series of works that then grew into another kind of work with other people too. It was called The Terminal, and it still is, and its going on. Its a little bit like a vacuum space maybe, its meant to be for a transfer, and thats how the book has started.
And then Nora started to use the Google Image thing for her advertisement for the invite of the project….
Yes, for my invite. I had some images of my material that I used, and I just put it into Google Images, I uploaded to see what Google Images suggested it would be, and then I had a number of very weird suggestions. That was fun, and actually, Keren taught me about how you do that. And we decided to use as a methodology for the book. Keren had all these stories about how people image…
I didnt invent them, I just Googled. Thats why the cover of the book is J-Lo, because that was the reason Google Images was invented, because everybody wanted to know what she was wearing for the Grammys.
Actually, the starting point of The Terminal was that I heard about a story, the movie by Steven Spielberg called The Terminal, where the guy, Tom Hanks, is caught at an airport for nine months. Its actually based on a true story of a guy who was at Charles de Gaulle Airport for over eighteen years, because he lost his immigration papers on the way, and his status couldnt be defined. I just wanted to make, like, a new…
For how long was he at the airport?
Eighteen years.
What? Its a true story?
I found it weird that there was this tragedy of the real story, and then a comedy movie about it, and I just wanted to make the third generation of The Terminal. Now it developed into something else because so many people have participated. Its, kind of, nice.
Ah yes, its true. It has become different…, well, its not really explainable.
Next question: Whats the sense to make books? Making books still makes the same sense as it did in 1997 or 2014. Books are a medium, as there is a sense to watching cinema, watching YouTube, watching a theatre piece, watching performances or to go to the circus. There is a sense to everything, any kind of entertainment has a place. Whats wrong with paper?
Yes, and what sense does it make to make art? It doesnt make sense. Thats what art is about, right?
Thats actually…, the minute Ill sell something, thats not art, because art doesnt need to sell anything, it doesnt make sense.
Look at our book. It makes sense as a book, and it doesnt make sense as an artwork, because an artwork doesnt make sense, it shouldnt make sense.
Ah yes, its true. Its become different…, well, its not really explainable. Well, it is, but… The difficulty of making books is to get the money to publish them.
Yes, difficulty is very much…, yes, but weve got money, so thats cool.
And about the difficulty of making books together, thats not difficult at all. I think we were really comfortable with one another.
Oh yes, because Keren took over, and I just let her do it.
I know, shes so comfortable.
She was getting weird, and I was, like, okay, whatever turns out here, I will accept it. I dont have it under control anymore.
I know, it was so nice that Nora is not a control freak, but she gave the materials.
Some of them at least.
Yes. That is the advantage. I dont need to produce materials. I have my own interpretations to Noras work.Nora: Its so nice to have a book. With advertisement.
Yes, I know, we didnt write a novel, we didnt sit at home for a year alone, we just, (clicks fingers) have a book, someone else paying for it, Sternberg are going to distribute it, and we got Jennifer Lopez with no copyrights on the cover. (Laughter)
Its very special.
To get a product that is distributed everywhere without much energy wasted.
Yes, and its very special that it has the A.P.E logo on the back, I think.
I also thought, because someone asked me, What is A.P.E? and I said: usually I finance. This, I didnt finance, but its nice to put a logo on it.
Yes, its very nice, its you, me and the A.P.E make a book together, three of us.
I dont do cooperation usually in art, because I like to keep to it myself, but turning to a book, I dont know, I also kept my mind open, and I knew Nora would give materials and that she was doing a lot of cooperation.
Its actually not cooperation, I just give it away.
Data
Big data is really relevant to our book. To find data is very easy, because you just find a system, and then in the system, especially when you include Google, you can easily find sexy data that can pimp your work. I mean, data is images, its, like, about…
Well, what I think is, that data already overtook our brains, and its not only shaping us and we can control it, but data actually made that book, and we were just the tools…
Thats true, actually. The book doesnt need us from now on, it can continue with Google Images. Its like Daily, what is the name of this famous newspaper? I forgot. The Daily Mail. So the data will fill itself with full articles from the newspapers.
Yes, I think its like a parasite that just used us to spread itself in weird ways in the art scene. The book is nice enough and weird enough to be considered as a real art object, so it will soon be an edition and a mass product, it will conquer the world!
Yes, totally!
Maybe other worlds too.
Yes, totally.
To find data is easy …
Is it? Well, yes, we said its easy to check because its there.
Its easy when you are the tool. Its always easy because you just…
Yes, you just feel it. I dont remember having difficulty collecting data. I dont think about it. I think collecting and collections are so easy, if this is the meaning, Ive no experience with it. I dont remember. Its not like an experience. Today I ate some pasta for lunch, I had more experience from this, because it was really nice, it was al dente like Bolognese. I had pleasure, but when Im collecting, I just do it to move on. Thats not important.
Yes, also, I mean, with collecting, or data stuff, or images, whatever things, I think that you click on something and then get to another field, and you know that this mind of data is bigger, but you can just take out a few things, and you will make your own connections or something.
Also, what we learn from Google is that people make connections between everything, its so random, its fine. Its not representing much.
I dont want to think about representation too much.
No, we dont like thinking about big things too much.
No. Art is not singular anymore.
Also, you know something? We are just like a little blink in history. Its not really such a big deal. When I studied history, I dont know if its true, but the teachers told me in art history that they found, not really a note, probably on a stone in old Egypt, and its the same, everything was invented, life is boring. I think they did invent a lot, and things are still being invented, and it will always develop, and art is a different kind of idea. Its giving new points of view that we didnt think of before.
Yes, exactly, and I think its just…
Its not data or anything. I think theres, like all history, lots of junk, just unnecessary things, but I think art, if its honest, its good, but if its someone really just doing something, its not about data.
Yes, and I also think that it happens simultaneously. Theres still the single thing, theres still the single memory of someone or something, it happens at the same time. I mean, there was obviously a wish of human beings to have a common kind of memory thats maybe bigger than their own one or something, and then to say, if I lose my memory of this thing, then at least its like a stored memory of thousands and millions of other peoples data somewhere. So I think its existing at the same time. Its maybe relevant for some people. I dont know, its not for me.
Because we take our in ourselves very seriously. All of this data, and they dont hear their own voice, but our voice is so loud and clear.
You think so?
Yes, I think thats why we dont understand why people are flooded with so much data.
I dont think my voice is loud and clear.
Ah, but you can hear it yourself. Well, you can hear it…
Thats true. Sometimes, yes.
Sometimes, yes.
Are data and art opposites?
No, its not opposite, its sometimes in, sometimes out, data is everything.
They are working with each other, kind of.
Yes, I mean, Internet, you know, I think its just a material. I mean, there are so many personal things, like fillings and memory, or things that are huge, bigger than Internet and the phone and the camera and the TV. I think people are using it because they need to promote something, but its not really important, so please, lets continue.
Its just important that you use it how you want to. If youre afraid that everything is used in a bad sense, then you should use it differently.
Also, you can use other things, its just like new, you know, theyre old, theyre new, but are equally important.
Everything is so in harmony. Theres no problem at all about that. Really, we are totally fine with this.
I just unfollowed all my friends on Facebook because they post the same thing.
How to respond to big data? Is it an issue for me to consider? No, its not an issue, because I…
Sometimes it is an issue, I guess, but its not…
Like, bringing raw data…?
I think more, like, that theres this big mind or brain of memory and data, circulation, that takes over. I mean, of course, I feel influenced or something by this. But I am not really in the place where I can give an answer to this, and it wouldnt be a clear answer, because youre working with this continuously. It doesnt mean you have to be in the creative cloud to make your art now. You can do whatever you want, its happening at the same time.
I mean, you need to keep your head on your…, whereas the head? Between the shoulders.
I think the creative cloud is actually really a disaster.
I know.
It exists and…
Its fine, you know? Well, just do what you want and dont just try to be obliged to use whatever is going unless people wave in front of your eyes, no?
Keren Cytter
